I’m still in awe of a meeting we had at church last night. A group of 100 leaders from our church have been gathering together to pray and to plan in this One Initiative our church has been going through. Last night, we discussed some possible changes that would affect everyone. From the report that I get from friends, if those type of changes were being discussed in some congregations, it would have gotten ugly.
Let me give you an example.
A friend called me a couple of years ago after a church business meeting. In tears, he retold of the ungodly things stated among the people of God. He told me concerning personal attacks that took place. He told me of the name-calling, the cursing, and the selfishness that pervaded the entire meeting.
He asked me what I thought went wrong.
I asked him to describe how the meeting got started. Taken aback, he said the beginning of the meeting was fine, it was the latter that got ugly. I asked him to still describe it to me in detail. He finally shared a piece of information with me that I was looking for.
After praying for that particular business meeting, a moderator took the platform, grasped the pulpit with his hands, and then told the people of God that they would conduct their meeting according to Robert’s Rules of Order. If you are unfamiliar with this volume, it is the standard for how most public meetings and civic forums are conducted. It gives formalities to seconding a motion or speaking out of turn or those business phrases you hear in certain gatherings.
My response to him was that the church business meeting didn’t have a chance for success when they relied more on Robert’s Rules of Order than they did the Word of God. Many would argue with me that you need structure and systems in meetings like these, and I would agree, but the Bible has plenty of instructions on that matter. God says to regard one another as more important than yourself (Phil. 2:3-4). God says not to let any unwholesome word come out of your mouth (Eph. 4:29). God says to respect and to honor spiritual leaders (Heb. 13:17). God says there is an order about confrontation in the church (Matt. 18:15). And so much more!
What needs to happen in many American churches is that they get rid of Robert and put Jesus back in his rightful place! Robert didn’t die on the cross for your sins, so I would let the one who did say how the people of God should conduct themselves.
I don’t know how many church business meetings you have ever been to in your life. You may be at a church where that doesn’t happen. You may be at a church where that is the thing that has the most attendance. Whatever your situation may be, don’t allow our culture or the words of man to dictate how you conduct yourselves. Let God’s Word be the standard by which we live.
Last night’s meeting was a reminder of our need for God’s Word. Listen – we had very strong-willed people in that room. The topic is a hard one. People spoke up. We were free to disagree, but we disagreed in a godly way. We spoke with grace. We were able to start and end in prayer. And that is all possible when you keep the Word central.
Which book more guides your church’s business meetings?
If Robert has been guiding your meetings, maybe it’s time to give Jesus a shot at it.
Travis Agnew serves as the Lead Pastor of Rocky Creek Church in Greenville, SC. His most recent book is Just (About) Married.
No, I'm not setting up the straw man to be the villain (not intentionally anyway), but its a problematic way of thinking for churches when we acceptthe ways of our culture over scriptural mandates.
Is there a scriptural mandate for how to run a meeting? Not that I have seen. The issue is the attitude of the people involved, for which there is plenty of scriptural guidance. I am responding to the purported opposition between a book that offers procedures for civil debate and one that reveals spiritual truth. The juxtaposition might be emotionally compelling rhetoric for some folks, but it does not address the issue: "Mend your hearts and not your garments."
I think the scriptures do speak to how to run meetings. Here's a couple:*1* I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a mannerworthy of the calling to which you have been called,*2* with all humilityand gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,*3* eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.*4* There is one bodyand one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—*5* one Lord, one faith, one baptism,*6* one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. -Eph. 4:1-6*1* So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,*2* complete my joyby being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and ofone mind.*3* Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility countothers more significant than yourselves.*4* Let each of you look not only tohis own interests, but also to the interests of others.*5* Have this mindamong yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus. Phil. 2:1-5,t-Phil. 2:1-5
The way I see it: There is nothing inherently sinful about Robert's Rules of Order (RRO). It is a basic set of rules to govern parliamentary procedure. The scriptural tenets which you bring up may be applied inside a concgregation which has adopted RRO. The important thing is that the body has agreed beforehand how the business will be structured. It doesn't matter if you follow RRO or Elvis's Rules of Order or No Rules of Order. All believers should follow the teachings of Paul and Christ which you cited. In summary, I feel that the individual Church is free to determine its own rules for business meetings. As the Bible does not address the issue, it is amoral. And the problems of sin which you cite in congregations which use RRO happen just as frequently in those that use other systems. Anytime people are invovled, our depravity will make itself known (particularly in democratically governed denominations).
Thought provoking note, by the way. Thanks for posting it.
Woody and I grew up in a church that relied on Robert"s for how the business meetings were conducted. People were sincere in their desire to do the right thing, but the foundation was wrong. Business meetings were a nightmare. Suffice to say-that church is no longer in existance. The building stands with another church name, bu the church we grew up in is no longer present. Isaiah 30:12-14 is a reminder of what will happen to us for our disobedience. I am thankful I am now a part of the body of Christ that relies on Christ and not "Robert's" for how we should conduct ourselves. I am thankful we have spiritual leaders that not only talk to truth but walk the truth. I am sure Woody would agree.
You have made my point: The scriptures tell us about the proper spirit. They do not tell us how to frame proposals, conduct orderly discussions, organize implementation, etc. I agree with your sentiment, but this is not secular versus Bible. It is Christians not obeying scripture while using a value-neutral tool. Changing tools will not change the people.@Jason: Ironically, I was just thinking about the danger of curruption in non-democratically governed churches. Let's not forget the reasons we had a reformation. I believe the potential destructiveness due to human depravity in a church or denomination in which the clergy and staff are unchecked by lay review are massive.
To all: Are you certain that the awful meetings you have endured were actually conducted correctly by Robert's Rules? Have you actually read the rules? They are much more comprehensive about procedure than most folks imagine. There is more to it than just having motions and seconds, etc. Most organizations do not follow the guidelines for discussion, amendments, etc.I have seen perfectly peaceful and productive meetings that were run by the book. I have also seen informal Sunday School classes that were political nightmares conducted in the name of God. It is the heart, not the tool–even if you have had bad experiences with the tool.Is the difference in meaning between personal "conduct" and how to "conduct" business not obvious to everyone? Are we so naive as to believe that a group of people who are in general agreement at the moment will not eventually encounter differences as to Christ's will and therefore have to communicate disagreement in an orderly fashion?Again, though, I fully support the original sentiment. I am responding to blaming the tool for the faults of the users. We claim to be moral people, so this distnction matters.
I think we agree more than we disagree.
For sure. For the average Joe we are splitting hairs.
You have made my point: The scriptures tell us about the proper spirit. They do not tell us how to frame proposals, conduct orderly discussions, organize implementation, etc. I agree with your sentiment, but this is not secular versus Bible. It is Christians not obeying scripture while using a value-neutral tool. Changing tools will not change the people.@Jason: Ironically, I was just thinking about the danger of curruption in non-democratically governed churches. Let's not forget the reasons we had a reformation. I believe the potential destructiveness due to human depravity in a church or denomination in which the clergy and staff are unchecked by lay review are massive.
Good post, Travis. Robert isn’t a bad start, but you can have perfect Robertian order without love and without God. If we’re all walking in love, toss Robert’s rules out the window.
Actually, Richard, the reason we had a Reformation was to return to the Bible. And God has clearly shown that the pastors/elders lead the church in all things. The reason why there is no specific mention of how to “frame proposals, or organize implementation” as you say is because the pastors/elders would be doing that. I think God did just fine for 1,876 years before an Army colonel named Robert came on the scene and couldn’t lead a church meeting correctly so he put together some rules.
His rules are not amoral when they give any member, regardless of their spiritual state, the authority to direct or “move” an entire assembly of God’s people one way or another.
Most of the harm done to the Bible or a church is from people who thought they could help God. This is the MO of liberalism. God does not need any help from Robert for decision-making in His church.
The church simply affirms their pastoral leadership or the church does not and the pastors/elders must abide by what the church ultimately decides. They are accountable to the body. Too often the “priesthood of the believer” is a guise for rebellion and division against the pastors/elders whom God gave in authority over the members for their care, teaching, and protection.
You cannot follow Christ when you disregard the ones He has put right in front of you to follow.
Pastor Mark
Sir:
The gentleman weaves a thesis based on a supposed-bad outcome at a business meeting characterized by him, although by way of hearsay, as “name-calling, the cursing, and the selfishness.” It should be noted that the first two of these are strictly prohibited by Robert’s Rules of Order and as to the third, any manifestation or questioning of motives is also to be supressed.
Given this, the thesis that somehow Robert’s Rules of Order are contrary to the teachings of the Bible is nonsense and falls to the ground.
For those that advocate meetings without rules, I just grab a whip, and like Jesus, I drive you out.
Solomon was the one that said that wisdom was worthy to be pursued. I suggest you take his advice.
Best regards,
Randy Kent Plampin
Randy, so sorry you totally misunderstand the big picture of the post. But since you are like Jesus and have driven me out with a whip, what else can I say? 😉
Truthfully, I don’t think you got the big picture.
I absolutely love this blog! I am a pastor and agree 100%.